Lietuva and Latvija: we rule! International project(s)

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This is Nimue from Kurbijkurne

So - first of all, our administrator already kindly created a section for non-latvian discussions - both for this debate game and translation issues (and whatever else we might come up with) It is here: http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/index.php?showforum=89

Once you have registred, there are drop down boxes at the bottom of the forum page and you can switch the general board language and button set to english ones -just to make navigation simplier. (It might be possible for guests as well, I am not so sure)

You shouldn't worry about the difficulty of the debate system - we are not experienced in forum-style debating either, so it is new for all of us (and won't be an advantage of any) - Nuluk would be the most expirenced - and he already told how much that is

Hello, Nimue!

I've just read through the Plaza rules and Plaza Jr rules plus I've begun reading some of the debates there. I think I get the main point and it won't bet too difficult for all us to at least try to do something serious. We will do mistakes, that's true, but in time we will grasp those ropes. What we need now is good judges.

Oh, I think that once we have decided on the rules, I will translate at least the main points into Lithuanian. It will be easier for the players to get the point, and to use the rules for quick reference.

Suilad and well-met in our community, Nimue

Thanks a lot to both Nulukkizdin and Starlin for linking the debate rules. I promise to read them all

*starts getting ready for the debates*

G'morning!

As i see, you have started to to acquaint yourself with plaza rules.. and that's good! However, i must remark that we cannot accept these rules exactly as they are.. We must make our own time limits i guess, as well as there is no need to consider rule about staying in character and other things..

Therefore, my suggestion is - everybody should read through plaza rules and post their objections here.. so that we could make our own rules and start to debate.. 😉

All right, I'm here and I can spend some time for preparations. I haven't read the Plaza debate IK rules yet and I'm only familiar with the Jr ones, but I know that the're pretty much the same, just that the Jr ones are less strict.

I will comment the debate rules Nuluk posted yesterday and see what I can come up with... (my comments in italics)

Starting the debate

1. Each country chooses one person to judge successive debate and 3 persons to debate (maybe we also need one or two substitutes?) - I agree with this one, though I think that if the first debate is successful and there are more members who want to join, we could probably advance to a 4v4 debate. And yes, we do need subs if we can find any. Just in case someone can't post in time.
5. Teams start preparation (judges do not help) - How long do you think the teams should prepare? I'd say, a week after the topic has been announced would be enough.

The Debate:

You haven't mentioned anything about team captains. I think it would be better if each team chose one, otherwise it might be difficult to plan and strategize effectively (splitting the topic in parts and deciding who is going to post what and so on...). I also suggest that we stick to the Plaza tradition of posting rosters after the judges post their rules and preferences. That is, team captains post the rosters in which members are written in the order they are going to post the main posts, and substitutes are added. And, just for fun, teams can make their own banners
So what I suggest is:

1. Judges post first - to introduce a topic, to introduce team members and to remind basic rules...
2. Team captains post the rosters
3. Teams start posting in order - Prop, Op, Prop, Op, Prop, Op, Prop, Op...
4. After the last poster has posted his/her argument, time is given for both teams to present their out-of-post rebuttals if they haven't done that within the debate (more about rebuttals below)
5. Judges make their decision

Time limits:

I suppose if the teams have enough time to plan before the debate starts, they can have at least drafts of their main arguments and all they need to do during the debate is to revise and finish their arguments considering what the opponents wrote, perhaps add rebuttals. In Plaza's Jr debates the time limit is 36 hours after the opponent's post. Missing the deadline results in pointloss. As we're not really experienced, I think we could have 48 hours - that is 2 days and should be enough, also considering the fact that we all live in the same time zone and there won't be such accidents as waiting for your team members to comment your post before posting it in the debate thread, when your team members are actually sleeping! 😉 (that did happen to me once) Then also the thing about substitutes. I don't think we'll need them, but just in case we do, we could make a rule about postponing the deadline if a sub is writing a post instead of a starter.

Word limits:

What about 2000 words, including quotes but excluding headings? And including in-post rebuttals if we're going to have those. That must be enough. 3000 would be too much I think, and I don't suppose anyone wants to write that much 😉

Main arguments and rebuttals:

In my opinion, first post of each team may contain only main arguments and no rebuttals. Rebuttals may only be made in 2nd and 3rd posts.
I totally agree with that. What about in-post rebuttals and out-of-post rebuttals? I suggest we can have both, and make some rules so as not to over-rebut (I think main arguments are more important than rebuttals). Here are some thoughts:

1. The firsts posters of each team are not allowed to make in-post rebuttals.
2. You should only rebut one statement made by your opponent, both in in-post and out-of-post rebuttals (this one is hard (I mean on Plaza) and even when you think you're rebutting one point, the judge tells you that you're over-rebutting and you lose points. However, I don't think we need such strict rules!)
3. Out-of-post rebuttals can be made at any time during the debate.

Or maybe we don't need out-of-post rebuttals? What do you think?

Judgement

I would also add "team unity" (or is that included in the one "Lack of contradiction within post and of teammates"?). Other than that, the points are good, and I think the judges should make their point system, let's say, the maximum you can get for creativity is 5, for "sticking to topic" you can get 5 more, and so on, and then the judges judge each post arcording to that and sum all the points... They should only give the maximum points to brilliant posts, though Anyway, the system should be up to the judges themselves.
_______________________________________________

What do you think?
Oh, and also, we don't need IC in the debate like they have in Plaza, or do we?

(commentary on Elfh's commentary -- to be insterted here later)

On sticking/not sticking to Plaza rules: of course we won't stick to them. But reading them through is a good starting point. Because once you have read through, you can drop an eye on one or two debates in order to see whether you get the point or not. Jr debates will do good, I guess, I read the rules of both Jr and normal IK (non-plaza members: inter-kingdom) and some examples of Jr debates. It's good for seeing the structure, indeed. Though I still don't fully get the rebuttal rules, but I'll read more.

Attention please!

I have a suggestion. We can ask some judges from Plaza to judge our debate! I think it would be great. Most of us are total beginners so an experienced judge would really make the debate better. What do you think? I think we could try to arrange that if you agree. What is more, if we have another judge, the more experienced latvians/lithuanians can participate in the debate instead of being judges, and we could even have a 4v4 debate.


Starlin and everyone else, if you don't understand the rebuttal things and else, just ask, I can explain you in lithuanian and make it all clear

Elfhild - damn.. you posted the exact thing i wanted to suggest.. I know some of plaza judges prettu well.. and thought that maybe Hoth and Turin (previously Elk; Maedhros, Eldar King.. call him as you wish) could help.. But really.. it would be great if our first debates would be judged by such specialists..

I completely agree with this idea. As far as I understand, there are very few of us who have any experience of participating in such debates, and those few would be much more appreciated within teams than as judges, if only to give the others counsel and suggestions.

Very well! I'll talk to these persons!

I'll retain my silence on the rules. You guys know better, and besides, Elfhild's suggestions seem pretty wise to me,as well as Nulu's, of course.

About those rebuttals: does every member of the team have a right for rebuttals? Or are those, for example, 2 in-post rebuttals plus 1 out-of-post rebuttal a limit for the whole team?

Great, Nuluk! It's just that there might be a problem finding a judge who is not busy. The IK debate season is about to start (or actually it has started already a few days ago), and I suppose Elk (or Turin, or whatever...) will be judging, and Hoth too, and many other Plaza judges... Oh well, we can try

EDIT: Starlin, each poster (except the one who starts of course) has a right to make one rebuttal in his/her main post. However, the whole team has only one out of post rebuttal and it is up to the team members to decide who and when is posting it. And you don't have to make any rebuttals, it's optional. It's just that you get some extra points if you do.

Elfhild - yes.. there might be some problems, but i'm sure we will manage it.. However, i think that we need to get rid with rules and beginning dates first.. and than we can start planing this judge thing..

As for beginning dates, I think we will need at least a week to set up the rules so that everyone understands them (by the way, next friday and saturday for me, personally, will be packed full, and for Laiqua, I guess, too: guys, let's remember it's the book fair next week! And Saturday's the RPG fiesta ), then a week of initial trainings (like, for example, inside the teams we could select a topic, just for ouselves, and try our hand at writing statements according to the rules) and then we can already have the judges post the topic! So I'd say, 2 weeks at the least. Or slightly more.

All right so... the rules. Do you have any comments on what I suggested? I think that what we have now is more or less the outline of what we need, so we just need to fill in the details.
I also suggest to write down a "debate guide" where it would be clearly explained how expactly the debate takes action and how one writes an argument: all about colour codes, "Opening statement", "Main argument" and "Closing statement" parts, and some tips on what the strategy should be... Just to explain how things work. These, I suppose, would not be included in the rules. What do you think?

EDIT: (Starlin, you're too quick in posting 😉 ) I suggest we have 3 weeks. Or, better, we have 2 weeks for rules and practice within teams, and then the topic is announced and the teams have one more week to plan. Brainstorming on the topic and planning does take quite a lot of time.
But it all also depends on whether we will have a judge from Plaza or not. the judge might want to choose the time too.

Two weeks? ..If it must be,it must. But you are like to find only ruined walls of will and wish in seven days from now,unless other help unlooked-for comes. Still, you may at least disturb the Orcs and Swarthy Men of a dark mind from their feasting in the White Tower..

joke 😉

Still..Star,what about the team?I mean..lithuanian one.. Will there be a muster,o kind of call-to-arms?

Alatar, I'm hoping that one lithuanian debater from the Plaza is comming here. She said she's really interested! We're debating on the same team at the moment
Also, I don't think we're short of debaters: Laiqua, you, me, Starlin... that's four already!

Elfhild, about that how-things-work, it's a brilliant idea and that's exactly what I've been telling you before! OK, we can have it in English anyway, but still such a thing would be useful.

Al: we're going to open a closed category for the team. You'll definitely be included in those who will have access to it Stay tuned. Meanwhile, we need a good name for the International Affairs category. Any suggestions? Remember that it should also have a sub-heading, as is usual in our MB.

EDIT: LOL, we could use the old good Khazad-dum for the debaters Lots of Sprite, darlings, and we'll be prepared for the battle!

All righty Starlin, I'll work on it Nuluk, is it ok with you if I take that up? You can comment and criticize after I finish

If anyone wants, we can have the "guide" in lithuanian as well. I'm going to write it in english anyway, it's easier for me that way, but I can translate it if there's need to.

Starlin, oh no, DON'T enter the mines, because there's no coming out of them! not without loss!

EDIT: I've thought of something else about time. What about, we have unlimited time for rules (to make them work we need some time!), and then 1-2 weeks for practising (as long as we think we need. one week might not be enough), and only then announcing the topic. We shouldn't rush, because otherwise people will be rather frightened by all this

Halls of Khazad Dum, You say..

Round table of Balin...Great debate in dwarowdwelf(or smth.. )..though beer and steaks could wait for a while..
The judges could be called Balrogs,cause they are the real masters in Khazad Dum
Team that wins could get an axe,as a prize,though maybe a simbolic one..