LTDK: latvių triuškinimas Nr.1

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Starlin
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#61 Standartinė Starlin » 08 Kov 2005, 12:23

Elk rašėColonI've noted the issue raised about Melkor/Morgoth, but I think that the pre-Feanorean coining of 'Morgoth' arguments are still valid. I don't have my books on-hand, but from my recollection of Morgoth's Ring, 'Melkor' is the person of Melkor, and 'Morgoth' or 'the Morgoth' is the full power of Melkor. I believe in Myths Transformed, Tolkien makes a reference to Melkor already progressing toward becoming 'the Morgoth' before the coming of the Elves to Valinor. In disseminating his power, Melkor became Morgoth. Morgoth himself did not lose power, but Melkor the person did, by spreading it out. See what I'm getting at? The two terms are very closely related, speaking indeed of the same person, much like the term "Arda" is seemingly the term for the Earth when in reality it is the term for the Solar System, Imbar or Ambar being the term for the Earth. I've not yet read the arguments, so I don't know who this might help/hinder, but that it my current ruling, unless my memory of Morgoth's Ring proves not to be as good as I thought it was.


:? Pirma: gerai, nes jis atsižvelgs į mūsų preFA argumentus. Antra: blogai, nes gali būti, jog mano ne-iki-galo-perskaitymas viso šito apie Melkoro "dissemination of power" galėjo pakišti mums koją. :roll:

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#62 Standartinė YaWorm » 08 Kov 2005, 13:02

Starlin rašėColon Antra: blogai, nes gali būti, jog mano ne-iki-galo-perskaitymas viso šito apie Melkoro "dissemination of power" galėjo pakišti mums koją. :roll:


Manau, šitą dar gali būt įmanoma pataisyt mano žinutėj. :)

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#63 Standartinė Starlin » 08 Kov 2005, 13:05

Gerai. Skaitysi visus tranformuotus mitus? :twisted: Dar yra laiko...

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#64 Standartinė Indraja » 08 Kov 2005, 13:16

Nuostabus skyrius, beje. Kaip ir esantis prieš jį.
Kaip bebūtų, asmuo jis tas pats - ar kažką išbarstęs, ar ne. O jei norima pabrėžti, kad tai dvi kokybiškai skirtingos stadijos (kurių vieną JRRT vadina "the Morgoth"), tikrai turėjo pasakyti tą aiškiai. Be to, "the Morgoth" tikrai nėra tik nuo to taško, kai taip Melkorą pavadino Feanoras, o yra jau nuo tada, kai Melkoras išsklaidė savo galią. O tai vyko - kaip suprantu - ankstyvojoje kūrimo stadijoje.
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#65 Standartinė YaWorm » 09 Kov 2005, 21:06

Hmm.. Starlin, paskaičiau aš mitus (viską, kas apie Morgoth) ir matau, kad Elk praktiškai davė tikslias citatas... Ir aš nežinau dabar, ar lįst ten (žiūrėsim dar, kai bus aišku, kiek prirašyta) :)

Ar jūs skaitėt paskutinę latvių žinutę? Man toks vaizdas susidarė, kad sie truputį kai ką supainiojo.. Ten pas juos daugau Closing Arguments (paskutinė žinutė)...

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#66 Standartinė Starlin » 09 Kov 2005, 22:30

Dėl Morgoto: tai pripainiojau aš kažką ar ne? :oops:

Dar neskaičiau jų žinutės... Gal reikia pasitikslinti, ar vienodai suprantam taisykles? Nimue tikrai turėtų, juk pati pasiūlė.

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#67 Standartinė Elfhild » 09 Kov 2005, 22:35

Aha, tikrai. Jie ten viską apibendrina, labai nedaug prideda... apskritai tokia padrika žinutė. Tikrai, rodos, visi sutarėm, kad 3 pagrindinės žinutės, o tada tas closing statement, kažkaip neatrodė kad nesusišnekėjom... :roll:
Prieš rašant savąją 3 žinutę reikia jų paklausti, ar čia tikrai buvo jų main post.
Hrrrr

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#68 Standartinė YaWorm » 10 Kov 2005, 19:52

Colour code:

Spoken words – Black;
Emphasis (Spoken words) – black underlined;
Quotes – Green;
Quotes’ source – Green, Italics;
Emphasis (Quotes) – green underlined;
Opponents’ words – Orange

Opposition Main Post #3 (LTDK)

Opening Arguments

I salute everyone who has gathered here to watch this debate. Greetings, our esteemed Judge Elk and our opponents from Latvia. We have come here to argue if Morgoth was a poor strategist. I, same as everyone in my team, firmly believe that Morgoth was not a poor strategist. To prove this, I will present few new arguments in my speech. Firstly, I will provide some new definitions that should help to better understand the topic of this debate. After this I will look at two great battles of the First Age: the Battle of Sudden Flame and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Main Arguments

As I will be speaking about the battles of the First Age, I’d like to remind you some definitions and give some new ones.

Rebuttal


Nuluk has said:
Our team is confident that:
Strategy = the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
(Webster dictionary) […]
We would also like to emphasize, that is is crucial to understand the difference between "strategy" and the term very similar and therefore often mistaken for perfect synonym, yet rather distinct in meaning - "Tactic".
Tactic = a method of implying forces in combat
(Webster dictionary)

I must say that you have supported your side very well, BUT… This term doesn’t mean only one’s ability to devise good plans towards a goal. Let me give you full definition of the same word from the same dictionary:

Strategy:

1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy
2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
3 : an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success (Merriam-Webster Dictionary Online, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... a=strategy, my emphasis )

As you can see, the term ‘strategy’ has much broader meaning than that stated by our honourable opponents. Therefore, we think that the fact that Melkor didn’t achieve his final goal is not enough to say that he was a poor strategist.

End of Rebuttal

Now here is another definition that I wanted to present before moving on my other arguments:

Poor

1 a : lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty
2 a : less than adequate : MEAGER b : small in worth
3 : exciting pity <you poor thing>
4 a : inferior in quality or value b : HUMBLE, UNPRETENTIOUS c : MEAN, PETTY (ibid, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... ry&va=poor )

So, if we agree that Morgoth was a poor strategist, we must agree that his skills were ‘less than adequate’. But I shall never say so! Morgoth showed a great skill when forcing his enemies to distrust each other (like in the case with the Elves) and separate from each other. The latter was perfectly done in the Battles of Beleriand. As we all know, after the Dagor Aglareb, the princes of the Noldor have set the Siege of Angband. But because of the strategic skills or Morgoth it was broken in

Dagor Bragollach

In my opinion, this battle (along with Nirnaeth Arnoediad) was one of the best examples of Morgoth’s strategic abilities. First thing he did, he set forth, when ‘the watch-fires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum’ (The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin). He used the factor of surprise very well here. But you cannot say that he wasn’t prepared for this battle. In the Silmarillion it is said:

For Morgoth had long prepared his force in secret, while ever the malice of his heart grew greater, and his hatred of the Noldor more bitter; and he desired not only to end his foes but to destroy also and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair. And it is said that his hate overcame his counsel, so that if he had but endured to wait longer, until his designs were full, then the Noldor would have perished utterly. (The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin)

One could say that the last sentence of this quote proves that Morgoth was a poor strategist. But I don’t agree that it does so. Morgoth didn’t have the gift of foresight and he could not tell at that time that he needed more strength. It became clear only after some time. I am sure that if Morgoth could see the future, he would have prepared a greater army. And yet, this army was greater than the Noldor ever imagined. Don’t believe me? Let me give you a proof from the Silmarillion itself:

Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. […]Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.
In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. (ibid)

Because of the impetuosity of Morgoth’s attack, the Eldar could not help each other and were defeated. And you, our honourable opponents, still say that he was a poor strategist?

Not long after the Dagor Bragollach, the Easterlings have entered Beleriand. Maedhros made an allegiance with them, because he knew that the Eldar are still weak and not ready for another battle if Morgoth strikes again. Later this decision proved wrong, as it was a part of the plan of Morgoth. But I’ll talk about it in another part of my argument.

Nirnaeth Arnoediad

This was the Fifth Battle of the Wars of Beleriand. Before this battle, the Eldar made a union, because they knew that sooner or later Morgoth will strike again.

But Maedhros made trial of his strength too soon, ere his plans were full-wrought; and though the Orcs were driven out of all the northward regions of Beleriand, and even Dorthonion was freed for a while, Morgoth was warned of the uprising of the Eldar and the Elf-friends, and took counsel against them. Many spies and workers of treason he sent forth among them, as he was the better able now to do, for the faithless Men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of the sons of Fëanor. (ibid)

And yet, previous deeds of Morgoth didn’t let them to unite all the forces they had. Why was that? I think you remember the Oath of Fëanor? It didn’t let his sons to unite their forces this time. How? For example, King Thingol of Doriath did not wish to give aid to the sons of Fëanor because they’ve tried to take the Silmaril from him, Orodreth did not join the forces because of the previous deeds of Celegorm and Curufin and so on.

Morgoth knew about this union, but he also knew how to use these cross-purposes. He tried to force Fingon’s advance by sending some riders with a body of Gelmir. Here is a quote showing how this strategic move helped him to win the battle:

Then the Captain of Morgoth sent out riders with tokens of parley, and they rode up before the outworks of the Barad Eithel. With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach; and they had blinded him. Then the heralds of Angband showed him forth, crying: 'We have many more such at home, but you must make haste if you would find them; for we shall deal with them all when we return even so.' And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. (ibid)

The hosts of Fingon were drawn forth and the battle began on a time that was not good for the Eldar. It is very possible that Men and Elves would have won the battle if not one thing. As it was said before, Maedhros had made an allegiance with the Easterlings. This was a part of Morgoth’s plans. Once again he had used a powerful weapon of betrayal. The Easterlings have betrayed the Eldar and the battle has been lost.

Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor, and in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of Maedhros. (ibid)

As it is said in the Silmarillion, the victory in the Nirnaeth was a fulfilment of his plans:

Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only those of the Three Houses of the Edain. (ibid)

Closing statements

I have spoken mainly about two battles: Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Both of them Morgoth had won, thanks to his strategic abilities. The Battle of Sudden Flame has been won because of the speed of the assault and the fact of surprise. The Battle of Unnumbered Tears has been won because of the great strength of his armies and the treachery of Men. I firmly believe that these facts show that Morgoth was a great strategist. Thank you all for listening.

Nekreipkit dėmesio į kodus :)

Edit: Jau latvių forume :) Pradėsim žiūrėt closing statement...

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#69 Standartinė Starlin » 11 Kov 2005, 14:05

Oi, ir nespėjau peržiūrėt... Nieko, viskas gerai :) Tik man pasirodė, kad rebuttal labai panašus į pirmąjį... Siūlau Closing Statement užsiminti apie tuos valas Įniršio kare: nepasakyta, kad jie buvo, bet nepasakyta ir kad jų nebuvo, taigi čia abejotinas dalykas.

To prove this, I will present few new arguments in my speech


Nununu :) ką aš tau sakiau apie few ir a few? :) Nieko baisaus, vis tiek supras...

Thank you all for listening.


:supz:

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#70 Standartinė YaWorm » 12 Kov 2005, 23:35

Starlin rašėColon
To prove this, I will present few new arguments in my speech


Nununu :) ką aš tau sakiau apie few ir a few? :) Nieko baisaus, vis tiek supras...

Thank you all for listening.


:supz:


Dėl few ir a few.... Teko rašyt vieną dalykėlį su šitais šiandien, tai, atrodo, jau prisimenu :lol:

Klausimėlis: kaip čia yra su rebuttals closing statements? taisyklėse parašyta:

Prop closing statement, Op closing statement
(Preferably written by the team captain) Aim: Enforce team's arguments. It may be done by summarizing your arguments, by rebutting the last rebuttals of the opponent or in some other way, but no new rebuttals can be made.

Tagi aš pasimečiau truputį... jeigu negalima naujų atsikirtimų rašyti, tai kam įtraukta by rebutting the last rebuttals of the opponent ? Žodžiu, ne visai suprantu šitą dalį...

Beje, Elfhild, kaip sekasi ta debatų žinutė? Jei kartais negalėsi, parašyk. Beje, laikas bus apie 50 valandų nuo dabar. Su sąlyga, kad jie, kaip mes, neparašys 12 valandų anksčiau. Tingėjau rašyt atskirą AŽ ;)

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#71 Standartinė Elfhild » 12 Kov 2005, 23:51

Man rodos, "new rebuttal" šiuo atveju yra bet kokio priešininko teiginio rebutinimas, ir tai neleidžiama, tačiau dar galima atremti priešininkų rebutinimą, t.y. tarti paskutinį žodį ir uždaryti visą tą reikalą, nepradedant naujo ginčo.
Žodžiu, galima rebutinti jų rebutalsą (oi kaip man patinka šitas žodis :mrgreen: )

Tikiuosi, teisingai suprantu... :roll:

Žinutę pradėjau vėliau nei tikėjausi, bet tikrai turėčiau spėti iki deadline (nebent staiga stogas įgrius arba žemė pradės drebėti). Negaliu įsiloginti į msn nors tu ką, kažkas blogai su .net passport :?
Hrrrr

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#72 Standartinė YaWorm » 13 Kov 2005, 00:30

Aišku... Žiūrėsim :)

Jei ko prireiks, rašyk į Tartarus. Mačiau, dabar ir RA online, tai padėsim :)

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#73 Standartinė YaWorm » 14 Kov 2005, 22:12

Closing Statement

Greetings for the last time in this debate! We have argued whether Morgoth was a good strategist or not. Despite of how hard have our opponents tried to persuade us that this is not true, we still firmly believe that Morgoth was one of the best strategists ever.

Summarizing Elfhilde

Elfhilde started presenting our arguments with an introduction to Starlin’s and Worm’s posts. She briefly explained what was Morgoth’s goal and deeds before and during the First Age, but she left the main part to the second and third debaters. Elfhilde stated that the main reasons of Morgoth’s successful strategy were:
• well chosen places for his strongholds;
• he was never lost in any situation;
• he knew how to split his enemies apart and makes them to fight each other.

Summarizing Starlin

Starlin developed the arguments about Morgoth’s strategic abilities from the beginning of the Ea and until the First Age. She made the following arguments proving that Morgoth was indeed a great strategist:
• strategy was inherent to Melkor;
• he chose the right time and allies to kill the Two Trees of Valinor and make the Elves distrust the Valar;
• he used Arda as a shield against the Valar.

Summarizing Worm

She spoke about Morgot’s strategies during the First Age, namely Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad. She presented few strategies, used by Melkor/Morgoth all the time:
• the swiftness of a good prepared assault to the enemies;
• infiltrating of his own servants into the enemies’ armies;
• the fact that one kindred of the Children did betray the other to help achieve Morgoth’s goals.

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#74 Standartinė Starlin » 15 Kov 2005, 23:13

Oi, tik daba perskaičiau :oops:

Šaunu! Tik... Elfhilde? :-k Aišq, tau kitas nickas įprastesnis, bet kai aš šituo nicku savo seserį pažįstu jau bemaž trejus metus... :p

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#75 Standartinė YaWorm » 16 Kov 2005, 02:02

Elfhillde dar nieko ;) Beje, aš kažkodėl visada būtent taip skaitau :oops: Gerai dar, kad neparašiau Elvadrieng :shock:

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#76 Standartinė YaWorm » 31 Kov 2005, 11:35

Sorry už dvi žinutes iš eilės, bet... Elk parašė savo sprendimą, jei kas dar nematėt. :) Gal ir nieko, nors buvo arti...

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#77 Standartinė Elfhild » 31 Kov 2005, 13:23

Et, kaip apmaudu - tik 2 taškai ](*,) Na nieko, gal kitą kartą bus geriau (juk bus dar vienas debatas?). Man visada atrodė, kad būti opozicija sunkiau, nes jie pirmi parašo ir pakiša koją mūsų strategijai :p

Šiaip ar taip galima sakyti, kad tai buvo lygiosios :twisted:
Hrrrr

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#78 Standartinė Indraja » 31 Kov 2005, 13:57

Mažai trūko... Reiks paskaityt atidžiau.
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