LTDK: latvių triuškinimas Nr.1

Khazâd ai-mênu! - debatai.
Žinutė
Autorius
Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#41 Standartinė Elfhild » 03 Kov 2005, 12:18

Worm, ačiū :) man tai labai įdomu, kaip Elkui patiko tas mano "Elkness" :lol:

Na, paskaičiuokim. Nulukkizdin savo žinutę parašė vasario 28d. 23:04 (nors iš tikrųjų aš matau kovo 1d. 00:04, bet turbūt aš kažką blogai nusistačius... :roll: ) Pridėjus dvi paras, išeina kovo 2d. 23:04. Viskas gerai, mums davė 48h :)

TAISA: savo nustatymuose pažymėjau, kad nėra daylight savings, ir dabar man gerai laiką rodo (t.y. Nuluko žinutė 23:04).
Hrrrr

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#42 Standartinė Starlin » 03 Kov 2005, 18:08

Įdedu nepilną variantą, kiek daugiau nei tūkstantis žodžių. Ir kodai dar nesutvarkyti, nekreipkit dėmesio dėl centravimo ir pan.

TAISA: va, įdedu beveik galutinį variantą. Bet į kodus vis tiek nekreipkit.

Opposition Post #2 (LTDK)

I am glad to be able to help my team as a substitute for Laiqualasse. Thanks to Elfhild for her first post and to our opponents and the judge for giving us a great chance to jog our minds!

Introduction

It is tempting to believe that Morgoth was a poor strategist, because he lost in the end, however, the fact that he caused a big headache for the Valar shows that he knew the weaknesses of his enemies and could use them strategically. In the following post, I will present evidence on Morgoth’s strategic achievements since the days before the creation of Arda until the beginning of the First Age. For the sake of clarity, I will split my main argument into three parts.

Main argument

I. The Creation of Arda: Setting the Scene

Morgoth, then Melkor, was among the mightiest of the Ainur. He was granted by Iluvatar the power and wisdom close to that of Manwë himself, and he had knowledge in all other arts and crafts as well. His characteristic feature was a lust to create things himself, not only through the will of Ilúvatar. Having this goal, he organized his actions in a way which was the most appropriate in given circumstances:

“<…> it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining <…>, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.” – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë.

The goal eventually proved to be far too ambitious, yet power over beings already created he did achieve, primarily in the Music itself:

”…many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.” – ibid.

So, Melkor managed to overrule the general musical theme of the Ainulindale with that of his own – a huge, although shortly lived, victory for his part.

When Arda was already created and the Valar descended upon it, Melkor

“<…> feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar <…>. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, <…>; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.” – ibid.

This shows two important things: first of all, Melkor desired mastery in the newly created world, and wanted to have subjects; second, he already had a plan how to do this. Maybe he did not understand the plan itself, but he intuitively felt what would be some of the most important parts of it – subtlety, deceit and subterfuge. He employed these means throughout all of his reign in all parts of Arda. Such ‘intuition’ shows that strategy was inherent in his very nature.


II. Within Arda: Strategy of Exploitation


When the Valar had descended upon Arda, there was much work to be done for the convenience of the Children of Eru. Melkor, on the other hand, wished to subdue the Firstborn Children to his will as soon as possible, and strove to fulfill this.

Both for Morgoth and for the Valar, the Children were one of the main reasons for descending into Arda, because they had no a priori experience about this matter. Knowing this affection of the Valar, Melkor drew the conclusion that he could use the Children as either his weapon or his shield:
- weapon, by turning them against the Valar and thus foiling their deepest desires;
- shield, by bringing them close to himself so that he could not be harmed without harming the Children.

For the former case there are several examples in the pre-First Age period. Firstly, it was Melkor who first found the Elves, as written in The Silmarillion, and he knew that Oromë was most likely to hinder his initial desire (to subdue the Eldar to his will). Therefore he devised a cunning plan, sending a dark Rider to frighten Quendi and to cause suspicion in their hearts as soon as they see another rider – Oromë. Who could say this was poor strategy! Melkor did plan ahead and at least temporarily succeeded in blocking his opponents’ actions.
The second example is Melkor’s direct interaction with Noldor in Valinor. By spreading lies among them, he struck the weakest part of the chain – who could have hearkened better than the Noldor, rash and ambitious by their nature? He used the unfavourable circumstances wisely and caused the Noldor to serve his own intentions. In fact, he did the best he could:
* prepared a priori, spreading lies;
* chose the best time for the destruction of the trees, when everybody in Valinor was feasting. Also he chose a perfect weapon – who could destroy the Light better than the mistress of the Unlight herself!;
* struck the weakest part of the specific Noldor-chain, too: he stole their jewels and killed their lord. This shows he knew the nature of the Noldor, and with proper early preparation they became perfect for accomplishing his own aims.

Even if Melkor had not set all those factors a priori, he could not have achieved so much without having a plan with core points at the outset. The strategical genius of Morgoth managed to carry out this plan, even if with adding minor details in the process.

As for using the Children as a shield, the Noldor were physically brought close to Melkor. I will not elaborate further on this point since it is pretty straightforward. However, deviating from the Children, we may even claim that Morgoth’s shield was much of the matter of Arda, and this brings us to the third part of my arguments…

III. Shields and Ineradicable Traces: Dissemination of Power

Quoting:

“To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.” – HoME X, Myths Transformed.

Let’s not hurry to claim that his becoming wholly physical caused him lots of troubles. According to Tolkien, Melkor

“…did this so as to control the hroa, the ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda.” – ibid, also everywhere below.

Yes, it was a dangerous attempt, just as later in the analogous case of Sauron and his Ring. In fact, Tolkien calls Arda “Morgoth’s Ring”. But does risk show poor strategy? Not at all! As pointed by the Professor,

“Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, <…> towards Melkor...”

Actually, one of the best-known examples is the Orcs. Although the issue of their creation is very complex, it is generally agreed that Melkor was involved in making them such a hideous race. It is said further in the same text that Melkor’s corrupting always started in the moral level, making the victims believe in him as Lord and causing the corruption of fëa to spread through hroa. Strategy? Definitely, and a good one. Planning ahead, using one’s best methods.

But let’s return to the quote above. By risking Melkor actually did that which proved to be disastrous to his own strength, but gained “a terrible grip upon the physical world”. The latter was infused with ‘melkorness’ and to conquer Melkor one had to fight by physical force and eventually cause “enormous material ruin”. By incarnating himself, Melkor made Middle-earth his shield, and hindered the Valar in making war upon him, since they did not want to damage Arda. Just as Sauron’s Ring had to be destroyed, for destroying Morgoth one had to completely desintegrate the ‘matter’ of Arda. Who can say that all traces of Morgoth have been eradicated? If this is not ‘planning ahead’, than I am Galadriel!

Finally, if we have already touched the material given in Morgoth’s Ring, it also says there that Sauron was first attracted by Melkor because of his “apparent will and power … to effect his designs quickly and masterfully”. These qualities are definitely those of a great strategist!

Conclusion

Drawing the threads together:

* Judging by the examples in the Ainulindalë, strategy was inherent to Melkor. He thought ahead and was working towards his purpose in the best way he could.
* While the Valar tarried in Valinor, Melkor watched for the Elves and made correct moves to hinder his enemies. He understood that he could use the Elves both as a weapon and a shield, and made this exploitation of the Firstborn possible by striking perfect spots.
* Melkor left ineradicable traces behind him and used the matter of Arda as a shield. In doing this, he prevented the actions of the Valar.

I am confident in telling you – Melkor was a super strategist, and it can be proved by dozens of examples!


Rebuttal #1

As the Latvian team has correctly noted, we first have to draw the boundaries of the terms we are discussing. The explanations Nulukkizdin has given are pretty self-explanatory, however, I must note that this is not the only interpretation of ‘strategy’ ant ‘tactic’.

I totally agree that “strategy involves the “big picture” – overall plan, while tactics are activities specifically created and selected to reach specific and measurable short term goals.” The problem is what we define as ‘the overall plan’ and ‘short term goals’. Nulukkizdin interprets these terms as Morgoth’s Great Plan and specific battles, respectively. I will show that ‘the overall plan’ does not necessarily have to be as long-term as our opponents imagine it.

Again, some definitions:

Strategy – 1. (art of) planning and directing an operation in a war or campaign <…> 3. plan or policy designed for a particular purpose.

Tactic(s) – <…> 2. art of placing or moving fighting forces in a battle

– Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary


The main point our opponents may have missed is that battles are not only about ‘placing and moving fighting forces’. ‘Battle tactics’ is planning how your forces are going to move. ‘Battle strategy’, on the other hand, is a wider term. While the primary goal of ‘tactics’ is to win the battle, ‘strategy’ looks at the purposes of the battle itself. Therefore I think that the planning of specific battles refers not only to ‘tactics’, but to ‘strategy’ as well.

Given this, I would like to say that in case of ‘strategy’ I do not necessarily have to look for the ‘ultimate goal’, which Morgoth presumably did not have (as shown in Nulukkizdin’s post). I can just as well analyze Morgoth’s strategical abilities in a smaller span of time. By the way, I have to note that discussing the ‘ultimate goal’ is also irrelevant in the case of the Valar. If “The Valar were like architects working with a plan ‘passed’ by the Government”, this only proves that there was neither an ‘ultimate goal’ for the Valar. The plan is not theirs, they did not comprehend it fully. Melkor also was a part of Ilúvatar’s plan, so why not include him in the same paradigm as the Valar? Thus, the strategic abilities of both Melkor and the Valar can be assessed on shorter-term goals as well, because both were lacking a fully-comprehensive “Great Plan”.
***

Taip pat pažiūr, jie čia šį tą citavo, bet nukando paskutinį sakinį, kuris yra mūsų naudai:

Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a 'plan'. But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation.


Worm, beje, tu sakei, kad 'baigi susipirkti HoME', tai gal netyčia skaitei visą Morgoth's Ring? Tuomet būtų smagu, jeigu galėtum vėliau pakomentuoti apie mano logiką, ar ji pernelyg nenukrypsta nuo visumos. Skaičiau tik tą sekciją, kur nurodė Indraja.
Paskutinį kartą redagavo 1 Starlin. Iš viso redaguota 3 kartus.

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#43 Standartinė YaWorm » 03 Kov 2005, 20:20

beveik susipirkus HoME... ;) X tomas turi ateit kitą savaitę, tada liks nusipirkt kada nors tik VI-VIII dalis (na dar Letters, a biography, ir dar kelias knygutes). O visa kita turiu taip pat, kaip ir Elfhild... (o iš kur, tu manai, ji tai gavo, a? ;) ). Šiaip aš tos dalies neskaičiau, bet, galiu paskaityt :) (Skaičiau tik tai, ko galėjo prisireikt ieškant atsakymų į klausimus Plazoj...)

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#44 Standartinė Starlin » 03 Kov 2005, 21:39

Va, viršuje juodraštį pakeičiau beveik švarraščiu. Dar vienam atsikirtimui liko apie šimtas žodžių, galima ką nors patrumpinti, kad būtų daugiau.

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#45 Standartinė YaWorm » 04 Kov 2005, 22:23

Latviai kviečia atsarginį. Reiškia, mes dar turim daugiau nei 50 valandų :) Jėga :)

Taisa: Latviai jau parašė. Matyt jie turėjo taip paruošę, kaip ir mes.

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#46 Standartinė Elfhild » 05 Kov 2005, 11:08

Dar neperskaičiau jų posto, bet pati pradžia užkliuvo:

Nimue rašėColonFirst of all we feel the need to bring to the attention of our opponents one rather important fact:
We sincerely apologise that we did not define the name "Morgoth" in our first post, however we had thought it should be obvious, that we are debating about the strategic skills of Morgoth (a person to whom Feanor gave this name and who acted throughout the first age) not Melkor. While Morgoth is always Melkor, the opposite is not so true i.e. - Melkor is not always Morgoth.
We would like the judge to draw the line, but we sincerely think that the topic of this debate is: "Morgoth was a poor strategist" not "Melkor was a poor strategist". We accept your arguments for now, but we would like to politely ask you to concentrate on Morgoth, not Melkor in the future"


Jie nori pasakyti, kad čia periodo prieš Pirmą amžių nėra ko kišti :roll: O vis tik, labai lengva paprieštarauti. Juk nuo to, kad pasikeitė Melkoro vardas ir jis buvo pavadintas Morgotu, niekas nepasikeitė, tuo labiau jo strateginiai sugebėjimai - žmogus liko tas pats. Nebuvo jokių metamorfozių kaip Gandalfo Pilkas->Baltas. Išvis, naująjį vardą net ne pats Melkoras susigalvojo, o Feanoras davė, todėl Melkoras/Morgotas su tuo pokyčiu bendro nedaug turi. Nematau, kuo jiems Melkoras nepatinka :-k
Hrrrr

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#47 Standartinė Starlin » 05 Kov 2005, 12:44

Galima tą rašyti į kitą rebuttal (bet dar irgi neperskaičiau visko kol kas). Šiaip nebūtina šnekėti apie virsmus ir taip toliau. Užtektų pasakyti, kad mes šnekame iš vėlesnių amžių pozicijos, na, juk ir Silas parašytas iš TA lefų ir žmonių pozicijos. O vėlesniems amžiams išliko būtent Morgoto vardas, taigi natūraliai tas pats asmuo kaip Melkoras vadinamas būtent šiuo vardu.

TAISA: perskaičiau. Na, turbūt taip ir darysim su tuo rebuttal, nes yra dar pora vietų, kur galima 'smogti', bet šita svarbesnė ir esmingesnė.

Noriu paklausti dėl jų rebuttal: jeigu faktinė medžiaga teisinga, tai čia mes tikrai suklydom. O jeigu ne? Ar tikrai patys valos į Viduržemę nekeliavo? Kažkaip nepamenu nieko šia tema...

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#48 Standartinė Elfhild » 05 Kov 2005, 20:16

Worm, šitas tau gali būti naudingas, čia apie War of Wrath:

Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen, and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire. The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil

Su ta Host of Valar, visko gali būti :-k Atidžiau paskaitinėjus apie War of Wrath, tikrai paaiškėja, kad jie į Viduržemę turbūt nevyko. Ir vis tik tai, kad nevyko, nėra parašyta konkrečiai juodu ant balto, todėl iš esmės negalima teigti nei kad vyko, nei kad nevyko... nebent apie tai rašoma kur nors kitur.
Hrrrr

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#49 Standartinė YaWorm » 05 Kov 2005, 22:31

Starlin, aš visiškai sutinku su tuo, kad atskyrimo Morgoth/Melkor neturi būti. Apie tai aš parašysiu truputį vėliau, nes mes laiko turim dar pakankamai (kiek atsimenu), o aš dabar kaip tik turiu parašyt dar vieną žinutę debatams...

Beje, dėl Valų kelionės į ME, Sile parašyta taip:

Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Ilúvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it. And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World. (Silas, The Music of the Ainur)

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#50 Standartinė Elfhild » 05 Kov 2005, 22:43

Mes kalbam apie ką kita - iškilo klausimas, ar patys valos žygiavo į ME Pirmo amžiaus pabaigoje, per War of Wrath. Nimue rebutino, kad "the Host of Valar" tebuvo Eonwe su vanjomis ir kt Valinoro elfais, o valos liko Valinore ir kare patys nedalyvavo. Dabar ir galvojam, kaip ten vis tik buvo... :roll:

Taip kad ainų nusileidimas iš padangių į Ardą su tuo neturi nieko bendra... ar tu kažką kita norėjai pasakyti? :-k
Hrrrr

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#51 Standartinė YaWorm » 05 Kov 2005, 23:23

Matyt per daug debatų vienu metu :lol: Pažiūrėsiu dar truputį vėliau ir atsakysiu :)

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#52 Standartinė Starlin » 06 Kov 2005, 19:28

Rebuttal #2

While Morgoth is always Melkor, the opposite is not so true i.e. - Melkor is not always Morgoth.

We believe that such cautiousness of our opponents is too exaggerated. Firstly, the name Morgoth was given to Melkor before the First Age. Secondly, those two names are sometimes used interchangeably, cf.

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed... - QS Chapter XXIV

In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda... - Valaquenta

Furthermore, since we are talking from the point of view of Men of Later Ages, Morgoth is simply a name we are more used to, and when we refer to Morgoth it doesn't mean that we necessarily refer to his First Age personality.

Our team believes that pre-First Age arguments should be taken into consideration equally with those of the First Age.

TAISA: dabar 2037 žodžiai. Dar apmažinsiu pagrindiniam tekste ir bus kaip tik.

TAISA II: Aū, man reikia patarimo. Dabar kaip tik bandau pribaigti žinutę, kurią įdėsiu apie XIval. (atsipr. kad visur rašau romėn. sk., bet jau užkniso su šita klaviatūra - nėra atskiros skaičiams...)). Tą "Rebuttal" kur viršuj darysiu ne kaip rebuttal, kaip ir sutarėm. Dabar yra du keliai:
I) antro rebuttal nedarau, bet užtat papildau tekstą pora citatų.
II) darau antrą rebuttal į jų rebuttal, bet tai abejotinas reikalas, nes neaišku su tais valom, nors pasikark. Galima užsikabinti tik už šito:

the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible


Tas 'forms' elfams netinka, nes tai daugiau reiškia valų/majų pavidalą, kurį jie gali keisti (cf. "when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female" - Ainulindale). Taigi jei ne valos, tai bent majos ten tikrai buvo.

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#53 Standartinė Elfhild » 06 Kov 2005, 19:50

Vis tik nedrįsčiau rizikuoti - su tais valom šiuo atveju dalykas slidus, todėl rebutalsas gali būti silpnokas. Kita vertus, susilpninti jų rebutalsą, teigiant, kad jie nebūtinai teisūs, gali būti naudinga. Tik tuomet reikia elgtis labai atsargiai, kad neatsitiktų taip, jog sau prieštaraujam, vieną kartą teigdami, kad valos ten keliavo, kitą kartą - kad tik galbūt...
Žodžiu, siūlau nerizikuoti :roll:
Hrrrr

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#54 Standartinė Starlin » 06 Kov 2005, 19:56

Gerai, tai duodu peržiūrėti šitą variantą: (hey, kaip juokinga, kai spellchecker'is taiso Tolkino skyrybą!

__________________________________________

With regard to the Melkor vs. Morgoth question:
We have discussed the problem raised by our opponents and decided that such cautiousness is not really necessary. Firstly, the name Morgoth was given to Melkor before the First Age. Secondly, those two names are sometimes used interchangeably (I can provide you with quotes, if you wish). Also, since we are talking from the point of view of Men of Later Ages, Morgoth is simply a name we are more used to, and when we refer to Morgoth it doesn't necessarily mean that we refer to his First Age personality. Therefore the Lithuanian team believes that pre-First Age arguments should be taken into consideration equally with those of the First Age. Of course, it is our venerable judge who should pass the verdict, but for now we are not changing our strategy.


Spoken words - black
Quotes – green
Quote sources – green italics
Emphasis (Spoken words) – black underlined
Emphasis (Quotes) – green underlined
Quotes from the posts by our opponents – orange

<center>Opposition Main Post #2 (LTDK)</center>

I am glad to be able to help my team as a substitute for Laiqualasse. Thanks to Elfhild for her first post and to our opponents and the judge for giving us a great chance to turn things over in our minds!

<center>Introduction</center>

It is tempting to believe that Morgoth was a poor strategist, because he lost in the end, however, the fact that he caused a big headache for the Valar shows that he knew the weaknesses of his enemies and could use them strategically. In the following post, I will present evidence on Morgoth’s strategic achievements since the days before the creation of Arda until the beginning of the First Age. For the sake of clarity, I will split my main arguments into three parts.

<center>Main arguments</center>

<center>I. The Creation of Arda: Setting the Scene</center>

Morgoth, then Melkor, was among the mightiest of the Ainur. He was granted by Ilúvatar power and wisdom close to that of Manwë himself, and he also had knowledge in all other arts and crafts:

“To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.” – Ainulindalë.

His characteristic feature was a lust to create things himself, not only through the will of Ilúvatar. Having this goal, he organized his actions in a way which was the most appropriate in given circumstances:

“<…> it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining <…>, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.” – ibid.

The goal eventually proved to be far too ambitious, yet power over beings already created he did achieve, primarily in the Music itself:

”…many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.” – ibid.

So, Melkor managed to overrule the general musical theme of Ainulindalë with that of his own – a huge, even if shortly lived, victory for his part.

When Arda was already created and the Valar descended upon it, Melkor

“<…> feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar <…>. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, <…>; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.” – ibid.

This shows two important things: firstly, Melkor desired mastery in the newly created world, and wanted to have subjects; secondly, he already had a plan how to do this. Maybe he did not understand the plan itself, but he intuitively felt what would be some of the most important parts of it – subtlety, deceit and subterfuge. He employed these means throughout his reign in all parts of Arda. Such ‘intuition’ shows that strategy was inherent in his very nature.


<center>II. Within Arda: Strategy of Exploitation</center>

When the Valar had descended upon Arda, there was much work to be done for the convenience of the Children of Eru. Melkor, on the other hand, wished to subdue them to his will as soon as possible, and strove to fulfil this.

Both for Morgoth and for the Valar, the Children were one of the main reasons for descending into Arda, because they were enigmatic. Knowing this affection of the Valar, Melkor drew the conclusion that he could use the Children as either his weapon or his shield:
- weapon, by turning them against the Valar and thus foiling their deepest desires;
- shield, by bringing them close to himself so that he could not be harmed without harming the Children.

For the former case there are several examples in the pre-First Age period. Firstly, it was Melkor who first found the Elves, as written in The Silmarillion, and he knew that Oromë was most likely to hinder his initial desire (to subdue the Eldar to his will). Therefore he devised a cunning plan in order to cause suspicion in their hearts as soon as they see Oromë:

“…either he sent indeed his dark servants as riders, or he set lying whispers abroad, for the purpose that the Quendi should shun Oromë, if ever they should meet.” – Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 3.

Who could say this was poor strategy! Melkor did plan ahead and at least temporarily succeeded in blocking his opponents’ actions.
The second example is Melkor’s direct interaction with Noldor in Valinor. By spreading lies among them, he struck the weakest part of the chain – who could have hearkened better than the Noldor, rash and ambitious by their nature? He used the unfavourable circumstances wisely and caused the Noldor to serve his own intentions. In fact, he did the best he could:
* prepared a priori, spreading lies;
* chose the best time for the destruction of the trees, when everybody in Valinor was feasting. Also he chose a perfect weapon – who could destroy the Light better than the mistress of the Unlight herself!
* struck the weakest part of the Noldor-chain, too: stole their jewels and killed their lord. This shows he knew the nature of the Noldor, and with proper early preparation they became perfect soil for accomplishing his own aims.

Even if Melkor had not set all of those factors a priori, he could not have achieved so much without having a plan with core points at the outset. The strategical genius of Morgoth managed to carry out this plan, even if with adding minor details in the process.

As for using the Children as a shield, the Noldor were physically brought close to Melkor. I will not elaborate further on this point since it is pretty straightforward. However, deviating from the Children, we may even claim that Morgoth’s shield was much of the matter of Arda, and this brings us to the third part of my arguments…

<center>III. Shields and Traces: Dissemination of Power</center>

“To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.” – HoME X, Myths Transformed, also everywhere below.

Let’s not hurry to claim that Melkor’s becoming wholly physical caused him lots of trouble. According to Tolkien, Melkor

“…did this so as to control the hroa, the ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda.”

Yes, it was a dangerous attempt, just as later in the analogous case of Sauron and his Ring. In fact, Tolkien calls Arda “Morgoth’s Ring”. But does risk show poor strategy? Not at all! As pointed by the Professor,

“Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, <…> towards Melkor...”

Actually, one of the best-known examples is the Orcs. Although the issue of their creation is very complex, it is generally agreed that Melkor was involved in making them so hideous. It is said further in the same text that Melkor’s corrupting always started in the moral level, making the victims believe in him as Lord and causing the corruption of fëa to spread through hroa. Strategy? Definitely, and a good one. Planning ahead, using one’s best methods.

But let’s return to the quote above. By risking, Melkor did that which proved to be disastrous to his own strength, but gained “a terrible grip upon the physical world”. The latter was infused with ‘melkorness’ and to conquer Melkor one had to fight by physical force and eventually cause “enormous material ruin”. By incarnating himself, Melkor made Middle-earth his shield, and hindered the Valar in making war upon him, since they did not want to damage Arda. Just as with Sauron’s Ring, in order to destroy Morgoth one had to completely desintegrate the ‘matter’ of Arda. Who can say that all traces of Morgoth have been eradicated? If this is not ‘planning ahead’, than I am Galadriel!

Finally, if we have already touched the material given in Morgoth’s Ring, it also says there that Sauron was first attracted by Melkor because of his “apparent will and power … to effect his designs quickly and masterfully”. These qualities are definitely those of a great strategist!

<center>Conclusion</center>

Drawing the threads together:

* Judging by the examples in the Ainulindalë, strategy was inherent to Melkor. He thought ahead and was working towards his purpose in the best way he could.
* While the Valar tarried in Valinor, Melkor watched for the Elves and made correct moves to hinder his enemies. He understood that he could use the Elves both as a weapon and a shield, and made this exploitation of the Firstborn possible by striking perfect spots.
* Melkor left ineradicable traces behind him and used the matter of Arda as a shield. In doing this, he prevented the actions of the Valar.

I am confident in telling you – Melkor was a super strategist, and it can be proved by dozens of examples!

____________________________________________________________

<center>Rebuttal</center>

As the Latvian team has correctly noted, we first have to draw the boundaries of the terms we are discussing. The explanations given by Nulukkizdin are pretty self-explanatory, however, I must note that this is not the only interpretation of ‘strategy’ ant ‘tactic’.

I totally agree that “strategy involves the “big picture” – overall plan, while tactics are activities specifically created and selected to reach specific and measurable short term goals.” The problem is what we define as ‘the overall plan’ and ‘short term goals’. Nulukkizdin interprets these terms as Morgoth’s Great Plan and specific battles, respectively. I will show that ‘the overall plan’ does not necessarily have to be as long-term as our opponents imagine it.

Again, some definitions:

Strategy – 1. (art of) planning and directing an operation in a war or campaign <…> 3. plan or policy designed for a particular purpose.

Tactic(s) – <…> 2. art of placing or moving fighting forces in a battle

Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary


The main point our opponents may have missed is that battles are not only about ‘placing and moving fighting forces’. ‘Battle tactics’ is planning how your forces are going to move. ‘Battle strategy’, on the other hand, is a wider term. While the primary goal of ‘tactics’ is to win the battle, ‘strategy’ looks at the aims of the battle itself. Therefore I think that “the planning of specific battles” refers not only to ‘tactics’, but to ‘strategy’ as well.

Given this, I would like to say that in case of ‘strategy’ we do not necessarily have to look for the ‘ultimate goal’, which Morgoth presumably did not have (as shown in Nulukkizdin’s post). I can just as well analyze Morgoth’s strategical abilities in a smaller span of time. By the way, I have to note that discussing the ‘ultimate goal’ is also irrelevant in the case of the Valar. If “The Valar were like architects working with a plan ‘passed’ by the Government”, this only proves that there was neither an ‘ultimate goal’ for the Valar. The plan is not theirs, they did not comprehend it fully. Melkor also was a part of Ilúvatar’s plan, so why not include him in the same paradigm as the Valar? Thus, the strategic abilities of both Melkor and the Valar can be assessed on shorter-term goals as well, because both were lacking a fully-comprehensive “Great Plan”.
Paskutinį kartą redagavo 2 Starlin. Iš viso redaguota 6 kartus.

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#55 Standartinė YaWorm » 06 Kov 2005, 19:56

Manau, nereikia antro rebuttal, nes tikrai mažai prie ko yra prisikabint... Geriau pridėk kelias citatas arba netgi nedėk nieko :)

Jei dar nematei, parašiau, kad kviečiam substitute. Jei ką, aš jau parašiau debatų žinutę į Plazą ir dabar laisvai pasiekiama per MSN :)

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#56 Standartinė Starlin » 06 Kov 2005, 19:59

Tarp kitko, čia dabar yra apie 1990 žodžių. Oi, bet kiek man spalvų kodų buvo "nubėgę" :oops: Būtinai reikės pasitikrinti prieš dedant ten.

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#57 Standartinė Elfhild » 06 Kov 2005, 20:45

Firstly, the name Morgoth was given to Melkor before the First Age.

E, nelabai suprantu, kas iš to seka? Jie apie Pirmą amžių nieko nesakė, kiek skaičiau :-k

I am glad to be able to help my team as a substitute for Laiqualasse. Thanks to Elfhild for her first post and to our opponents and the judge for giving us a great chance to turn things over in our minds!

Nesuprantu, kodėl šitie sakiniai atskirai. Nenori irgi prie Introduction dėti?

For the sake of clarity, I will split my main arguments into three parts.

Na, čia nebūtina, bet dar gali pridėti ir kokios bus tos trys dalys ir ką kurioje kalbėsi - labai trumpai, keliais žodžiais. Kaip Worm sakė, Elkui patinka, kai savo įžangoje išdėstai, apie ką kalbėsi.

Beje, kadangi mes jau ir taip spalvinam citatas, manau, nebūtina dėti kabučių, bet čia jau skonio reikalas :)

If this is not ‘planning ahead’, than I am Galadriel!

:lol: :supz:

O šiaip man viskas labai patiko, go you! :plojam:

Apskritai man atrodo, kad jei leidžiami 2 rebutalsai, tai 2000 žodžių limitas per mažas. Gal kitam žaidimui siūlome pakeisti į 3000? Tai nereiškia, kad turėsim plėstis (svarbu ne kiekybė, o kokybė), bet bent jau nereikės savęs varžyti.
Hrrrr

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
MiestasCOLON London
CONTACTCOLON

#58 Standartinė Starlin » 06 Kov 2005, 23:18

Mes jau ten. Vienintelė blogybė - nušokusi ___________ linija, kurią derinau derinau per preview, bet vis tiek išėjo blogai :oops:

Elfhild
Nazgūlė
PranešimaiCOLON 1921
UžsiregistravoCOLON 01 Kov 2004, 15:55
MiestasCOLON agūp ilautriv
CONTACTCOLON

#59 Standartinė Elfhild » 06 Kov 2005, 23:20

Na, ką jau dabar padarysi su ta linija :goodman: Svarbu, pati žinutė gera :supz:

Laukiam latvių pasirodymo...
Hrrrr

YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
MiestasCOLON Tower of Orthanc, 45 aukstas, 9 kambarys
CONTACTCOLON

#60 Standartinė YaWorm » 07 Kov 2005, 01:20

O man ta linija visai patinka, beje :) Taktinis atskyrimas :wink: Pati žinutė JĖGA! :supz: :partyman:

Ryt iš pat ryto pradedu rašyt savo žinutę. Pas mane dalį dienos ryt ir gal antradienį gali nebūt interneto, bet laiko mes turim. O jei atsorastų, tikrinsiu nuolat :)

BUTTON_POST_REPLY