LTDK: latvių triuškinimas Nr.1

Khazâd ai-mênu! - debatai.
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Alatar
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UžsiregistravoCOLON 09 Bal 2004, 10:36

#21 Standartinė Alatar » 26 Vas 2005, 21:23

kas toks yra
Хэлгором
??? :roll: siaip jau gana emocinis argumentas...

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Starlin
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#22 Standartinė Starlin » 26 Vas 2005, 21:57

Elfhild rašėColonKapitonė: YaWorm
Žinutės:
I. Elfhild
II. Laiqua
III. YaWorm


Pardon, bet ar neturi pirmos žinutės rašyti kapitonas? :-k Kad nebūtų paskui kokio nesusipratimo. Juk galima paprasčiausiai pakeisti kapitono vardą tokiu atveju... Tiesa, Laiquai primenu (Kirminėlei, oi, Wormei, to turbūt primint nereikia ;)), kad pasiliktų vietos atsikirtinėjimams, jei rašys žinutę iš anksto.

YaWorm
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#23 Standartinė YaWorm » 27 Vas 2005, 15:14

Starlin, kiek skaičiau taisykles, kapitonas turi rašyti pabaigą (closing arguments). Daugiau lyg ir nieko nera... Štai citatėlė iš taisyklių:

Prop 1st post, Op 1st post
Aim: Outlining Proposing/Opposing team's main arguments. Backing them up as much as space allows. The Opposing team cannot rebutt the arguments put forward in the Proposing team’s first post.
Prop 2nd, Op2nd (also 3rd, 4th…)
Aims: Backing up previously outlined arguments. Rebutting opposing teams arguments. Introducing new arguments. Only two rebuttals allowed in one team’s post. Opponent’s rebuttals can be rebutted, and those rebuttals are also included in the two rebuttals limit.
Prop closing statement, Op closing statement
(Preferably written by the team captain) Aim: Enforce team's arguments. It may be done by summarizing your arguments, by rebutting the last rebuttals of the opponent or in some other way, but no new rebuttals can be made.
(Mano paryškinimas)

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Starlin
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#24 Standartinė Starlin » 27 Vas 2005, 20:59

OK ok, jokių problemų, aš tik pasitikslinau.

Keista, dar neprasidėjo debatai...

YaWorm
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UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
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#25 Standartinė YaWorm » 28 Vas 2005, 15:33

Starlin rašėColonOK ok, jokių problemų, aš tik pasitikslinau.

Keista, dar neprasidėjo debatai...


Chi chi, viskas gerai, pasitikslint irgi reikia (man irgi proga buvo). Musu saraselis jau gijoj :) galima pradet ruostis pirmai zinutei... Elfhild, gal jau turi juodrasti?

Ryt po pietu as jau busiu iprastinej darbo vietoj, taigi mane galima bus rast per MSN ir kitus IM dalykelius... Atsiprasau taip pat, kad be lietuvisku raidziu rasau :)

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Laiqualasse
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#26 Standartinė Laiqualasse » 28 Vas 2005, 18:37

Labai atsiprašau ir persiprašau, tačiau netikėtai susirgau ir tikrai nesugebėsiu užbaigti savo žinutės ir ją parašyti. Starlin, Alatar, gal kuris galit? Daugiau nei pusę žinutės jau turiu parašęs, persiųsiu į mail'ą. Kuo greičiau atsakysit, tuo geriau :)
Dar sykį atsiprašau :oops:
And the strings crescendo like the sunrise in the sky
The percussion section thunders like the storm clouds in their wonder up on high
The brass is roaring like the mighty ocean’s tide
Creation is music, and music is creation

Nai i cala Eruo siluva tielyasse...

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#27 Standartinė Starlin » 28 Vas 2005, 18:42

OK, siųsk man į etelie at yahoo dot co dot uk. Parašysiu... Tik Worm turės perspėti prieš man spausdinant, kad rašys sub'ė. Beje, tavo eilė, Laiqua, dar tik už kelių dienų, bet jeigu jau jauti, kad neparašysi, tai geriau sveik, žiūrėk savęs ;)

Indraja
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#28 Standartinė Indraja » 01 Kov 2005, 13:07

Nugi sakiau - latviai iškas tą dalykėlį... Tik nesitikėjau, kad jau pirmoj žinutėj ir TIEK. Va, iš tos pat vietos (Notes on motives in the Silmarillion) galim pacituot
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. ...
Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits. ...
The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring ... the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.
Sakyčiau, strategiškai labai geras žingsnis (ir gerokai didesnio masto, nei orkų kūrimas). Pats ryškiausias pavyzdys, rodantis, kad Morgotas galėjo galvoti ne tik apie artimiausią mūšį (kuo jį kaltina mūsų varžovai). Tik, jei tai panaudosit, reiktų, kad tas, kas rašys, perskaitytų... Čia yra II.Pre-FA. Linkiu Laiquai sveikti, o sveikstant šį vieną epizodėlį išnagrinėti ir aprašyti (jei kiti sutinka, kad jis svarbus).
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Starlin
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#29 Standartinė Starlin » 02 Kov 2005, 03:13

Indraja, perskaičiau ir išsirinkau dar daugiau citatų. Žiūrėsim, ką perpasakosim, ką taip įdėsim. Laiqua, nepyk, truputį koreguoju tavąjį planą (tikiuosi, Elfhild nieko priešingo neparašė savo žinutėje. Nieko, dar bus šiek tiek laiko pataisyti. Aš savąją jau suplanavau). iš esmės tavo planu pasinaudojau kaip starting point, bet jį permaišysiu.

Ha, o aš irgi šį tą atspėjau: kad tą citatą iš Silo jie naudos prieš mus...

Alatarai, labai reikia tavo pagalbos (juk išmanai karo terminologiją, ką?): ar galima sakyti 'battle strategy', ar tik 'war strategy' įtikinamai skamba? Bandysiu per šitai atsikirsti jų strategijos apibūdinimui. Jau kaip ir parašiau, bet kol kas čia nedėsiu, dar juk reiks koreguot ilgį ir kt. Šiaip esmė ta, kad taktika - pajėgų judėjimas ir pan., o strategija - truputį platesnis to paties mūšio matymas. Noriu jiems parodyti, kad strategija nebūtinai reiškia toli siekiantį tikslą, t.y. kad 'strategija' nebūtinai reiškia galutiniausio tikslo siekimą, tai susiję su tikslais, bet nebūtinai tokiais tolimais. Tam man reikia žinoti, ar galima kalbėti apie mūšio strategiją. Jeigu ne, visa mano teorija balrogui ant sparnų nueis (:mrgreen:).

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#30 Standartinė Elfhild » 02 Kov 2005, 03:41

Pardon, kažkaip šiuo metu man visiškai nesiseka rašyti tos žinutės. Jau n valandų sėdžiu su klaviatūra ir krūva knygų bei žodynų, bet ir tai dar nebaigiau, o anglų kalba šiandien įtartinai šlubuoja :oops:
Nusprendžiau, kad geriau eisiu miegoti, paliksiu jums čia, ką jau parašiau, o rytoj šviežia galva pabaigsiu.
O dar jeigu kas nors moka trigonometriją ir neturi ką veikti... :oops: (per tą tolkinizmą vis mokslai nukenčia)
Tai va, šiuo metu mano žinutei trūksta:
1) citatų (dar keliose vietose noriu pridėti, tik reikės suieškoti)
2) conclusiono
3) paredagavimo :?

________________________________________________________

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Quotes – green
Quote sources – green italics
Emphasis (Spoken words) – black underlined
Emphasis (Quotes) – green underlined

Opposition Main Post #1 (LTDK)

Introduction

Highly esteemed judge, worthy opponents and all the listeners who have come here from afar! We’re here to debate whether Morgoth was a poor strategist or not. Our opponents, Latvians, have already expressed their opinion on this matter, stating that Morgoth was not a good strategist. Conversely, we strongly believe that he was and indeed we marvel at how good the evil Vala was at planning his moves and thinking about ‘tomorrow’. Tomorrow always comes… and Morgoth was a being who knew that all too well, which is why he was always wisely planning ahead unlike his enemies. Now let me explain why I am referring to Morgoth’s enemies when the debate is about Morgoth himself.

Main arguments

Relativity within the topic statement

First, I would like to note that whenever assuming that someone or something is good or bad, we must have something to compare it with – and that ‘something’ is a point of reference.

A thing cannot be good or bad all on its own. Speaking in ordinary terms, if you say that chocholate with nuts is tasty, you actually deduct the statement from the fact that (e.g.), in your opinion, chocholate with nuts is tasty comparing to asparagus. Therefore in this rather Arda-unrelated example asparagus is the point of reference.

Taste is a very slippery subject and, thank goodness (or Elkness!), we are not going to need to deal with it in this debate. Quite the reverse, the matter of Morgoth being a good strategist is plain and can be logically proved: he was a good one because he was far better in strategizing than any other beings, all the inhabitants of Arda being the reference point. Even if there were one or two persons who were better strategists than Morgoth (which I highly doubt), the Vala would still be ‘good’ – note that there are no superlatives in the statement “Morgoth was a poor strategist”, therefore we are not talking about ‘best’ or ‘worse’.
That makes it even easier for us to prove our undeniable truth!

All the time I have been pointing towards one important matter on which I and later my teammates are going to concentrate on: Morgoth was a better strategist than his enemies, therefore he was a good one. ‘Enemies’ in this case could be roughly split into two significant parts:
1) Valar and Maiar;
2) Eldar and Atani;
The strategic skills of the enemies is the point of reference we will use.
The Valar and the Maiar were Morgoth’s most powerful enemies, but alas! despite their numbers (Morgoth was only one facing all the other Valar!) and wisdom, they failed to surpass Morgoth in his mighty skills of strategy and thus much evil happened in Arda. This is mostly seen in the events before the First Age and in some of the First Age itself.
The Elves and Men were much weaker than Valar and Maiar, however, they were the main figures of the war against Morgoth in the First Age. If it was not for the Valar, who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, Eldar and their mortal allies would have been utterly defeated thanks to Morgoth’s strategy.

Pre-First Age strategy

Morgoth demonstrated amazingly good (and successful) strategy from Ainulindalë till the beginning of the First Age. Just think about it: the Ainur came to Arda and started their labours, creating the environment and preparing everything for the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. However, they only thought about the near future and, unlike Melkor, they did not think about what would happen afterwards and what they could do to affect the future development of the history of Arda so that it comes to their benefit. To say the truth, they could have even made some plan to stop Morgoth’s malice from spreading in Arda!

Indeed from the very beginning it was a disadvantage for Melkor that he was the only one of a different mind among all the Ainur and first it was he alone who disturbed the harmony of the Music of Ainur. However, throughout the years before the First Age he worked hard to reduce this disadvantage by finding allies. For example, in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta). He didn’t succeed in that, but still others he corrupted <…> to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Melkor didn’t just go here and there rashly destroying all the works of the Valar. He was looking for allies, and that is already good strategy!

Another significant strategic movement made by Melkor was fortifying himself in Middle-earth, literally in the middle of the world where all the events take place – not in some far place like Valinor on the edge of the world! After the Valar have done their work creating everything in Arda, they rather seem to be passive spectators, whereas Melkor is a participant who is making plans and strategy. His excellent strategy is obvious at the time when the Darkening of Valinor draws near, when he actually sets the soil for all the events of the First Age. By his secret cunning labours while he dwelt in Valinor he achieved a split between his enemies. My teammate Laiqualasse will explain this in detail, and now I must move on to…

…the turbulent First Age

The First Age is actually the period of Arda’s history in which Morgoth’s strategic talent is revealed to us in all its might. Morgoth’s brilliant idea was to deal with the two kinds of enemies one by one. As I said, before the rising of Sun and Moon, he prepared the soil for everything that happened afterwards to unfold. Many of the Eldar, mostly Noldor, left Valinor and went to Middle-earth. Without the help and support of the Valar, they were here much easier to defeat. In fact, Morgoth almost achieved this part of his plan. Being defeated at the end by the Valar was not lack of strategy.

Now in Of the Beginning of Days in the Silmarillion it is said:

<…> since they [the Valar] understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.

Who could have thought?! By starting a conflict between the Eldar and the Valar, by driving the Noldor from Valinor and finally having war against them Morgoth was actually both manipulating an risking!

He was risking because he knew that meddling with th Children of Ilúvalar might turn to no good. He also knew that the Valar could suddenly come from the West and defeat him. One always needs to risk more or less, even if he or she is a really good strategist. This could be roughly compared to playing cards: no matter how good your strategy is, you are still risking a lot!

On the other hand, Morgoth was manipulating (a sign of well-thought-of strategy!), because he knew that the Valar would not want to interfere in the deeds of Noldor; for several hundreds years this strategy worked very well. While content with the Valar sitting in Valinor behind their thick fences and high Mountains, Morgoth could work on strategizing for the war with the Noldor itself.

Here we touch another important subject: battles. If Morgoth had been a poor strategist, he would have striked too soon or too late. But he didn’t, except for one or two instances when he made a mistake (hey, even Napoleon made mistakes!). One by one he took the strongholds of Elves in Beleriand. He used dragons and Balrogs, and his orcs multiplied. Another important achievement made by him was corrupting Men to his service. Where were the Valar at the moment? How come they missed the coming of Men and thus most of them were turned to evil? It was so because Morgoth was ever making plans for the future, whereas the Valar were not.

Our captain YaWorm will elaborate more on Morgoth’s strategy in the First Age, and I, having outlined what I and my teammates strongly believe, will not take more of your time.

Conclusion
Hrrrr

Indraja
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UžsiregistravoCOLON 23 Kov 2004, 17:16
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#31 Standartinė Indraja » 02 Kov 2005, 11:01

Mūsų varžovai būtų žiopli taktikai (?), jei neskaitytų šios gijos (jų forume yra vienas žmogus, mokantis lietuviškai, o kiti citatas mato). Gi čia ne mūsų nazgūlai, kuriems jų Karaliaus ar Precious žodis - šventas. Na, bet turbūt mažas skirtumas, ar jie jūsų mintis pamato diena anksčiau, ar vėliau. Be to, tokiu daiktu kaip tas HoME skyrius būtų pasinaudoję bet kuriuo atveju - tai juk vienas reikšmingiausių (jei ne reikšmingiausias) JRRT veikalų apie Melkorą.
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YaWorm
Matė Žiedą
PranešimaiCOLON 56
UžsiregistravoCOLON 06 Vas 2005, 14:41
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#32 Standartinė YaWorm » 02 Kov 2005, 12:09

Elfhild, jėga! Gerai, kad naudoji mažai citatų (vistiek jos reikalingos daugiau paremti tavo argumentus, o ne kaip patys argumentai. Aš tik siūlyčiau išplėst Opening arguments: pasakyk, apie ką kalbėsi tu ir ką aptars kiti iš visos komandos (kiek žinau, Elk tai patinka). Pvz.: mūsų komanda naudos tokią strategiją: pirmiausia aš šnekėsiu apie tą, tą, tą, vėliau Starlin rašys apie tai ir Worm apie tai. (Mane gali drąsiai vadint Worm, aš nepyksiu :wink: ). Beje, tavo žinutėj šiuo metu yra 1418 žodžių.

Indraja, hmm... tikėkimės, kad varžovai pakankamai sąžiningi, ir šito nedaro... Čia jau debatų etika.. Nelįsk į kitos komandos aptarimų giją, net jei gali perskaityt...

O dėl jų argumentų... Jie gerai savo darbą kol kas atlieka, reikia pripažint :) Aš truputį vėliau pažiūrėsiu, prie ko jų žinutėj galima prisikabint.

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Starlin
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#33 Standartinė Starlin » 02 Kov 2005, 18:35

Savo pastabas Elfhild jau išsakiau atskirai. Gal ką nors pataisys, bet jau terminas už šešių valandų, taigi reikia paskubėti.

Todėl ir siūliau uždaryti šitą kategoriją. Dabar gi pasikliaujam jų sąžiningumu. O kas ten lietuviškai moka?

Pažadėjau Laiquai ir šiaip visiem parašyti, ką sumąsčiau su savo žinute. Tai va, bus šitaip (Main Argument trys dalys):

I. The Creation of Arda: Setting the Scene

Tik pakoregavau Laiquos tekstą, sustiprinau kai kuriuos argumentus. Esmė ta, kad Morgotas tuo metu turėjo konkretų tikslą (kurti pats) ir esamomis aplinkybėmis elgėsi tinkamiausiai (keliavo po tuštumą ir pan.). T.p. kad intuityviai jautė, ką turės daryti - veikti per Vaikus -> prigimtinis strategiškumas. Paminėta bus ir tai, kad pačioje Muzikoje pasiekė nors trumpalaikę, bet svarbią pergalę.

II. Within Arda: Teleology and Strategy of Exploitation

(pavadinimas dar gali keistis)

Kalbama apie konkrečius Silo pavyzdžius, kaip prieš PA Morgotas naudojo savo strategiškumą, ypač kad veikė per Vaikus, su kuriais, jis suprato, valos buvo labai susiję. Vaikus naudojo kaip ginklą ir kaip skydą. Kaip ginklą - pakreipia juos prieš valas (dark rider, vėliau su žmonėm; plačiau apie Noldor), kaip skydą - prisidengia jais (tiesiogine prasme - prisileidžia arti noldas, kad valos negalėtų kariauti nepakenkdami jiems; netiesiogine prasme jo skydas buvo visa Arda -> pereinam į kitą dalį).

III. Shields and Ineradicable Traces: Dissemination of Power

(pavadinimas dar gali keistis)

Čia grynai HoME medžiaga, kaip Melkoras faktiškai padarė savo nugalėjimą neįmanomą. Čia prisiliesiu ir prie orkų temos, bet nedaug, nes nieks tiksliai nežino, kaip ten su jais buvo.

Va... O dėl vieno rebuttal jau viršuje rašiau.

Worm, tu nepamiršk, turėsi parašyti, kad antrą žinią rašys sub'ė.

TAISA: spausdelė

Indraja
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PranešimaiCOLON 5119
UžsiregistravoCOLON 23 Kov 2004, 17:16
MiestasCOLON Reality: Extended Edition
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#34 Standartinė Indraja » 02 Kov 2005, 18:38

Nežinau, kas - tiesiog vieno naujoko paklausiau, kokias kalbas jo bendraforumiečiai supranta. Taipogi išdaviau, kad pas mus viena supranta latviškai (nesakiau, kas). Mat labai nustebau, kad jų moderatoriai susivertė ant pečių tokį darbą - viską verst iš anglų į latvių.
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Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
PranešimaiCOLON 7148
UžsiregistravoCOLON 28 Vas 2004, 12:48
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#35 Standartinė Starlin » 02 Kov 2005, 19:01

Techninis dalykas: avatarus rasite atributikos gijoje. Tikiuosi, aišku, kaip susižinoti jų URL. Latvių forume, kai dėsitės šitą avatarą, įveskite tokius duomenis: Width 100, Height 57. Tuomet neišsitemps.

Elfhild
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#36 Standartinė Elfhild » 02 Kov 2005, 21:22

Štai ji. Prašau ypač perskaityti Introduction ir Conclusion. Visa kita nedaug pakeičiau, daugiausia tai, ką Starlin pasiūlė.
Laukiu greitų komentarų ir jau einu postinti :) (prieš tai gal gijoje 'test' pabandysiu). Ir dar bandysiu užsidėti tą avatarą.
Beje, pavadinimų neišcentrinau, bet gal geriau išcentrinti?
_______________________________________________________

Spoken words - black
Quotes – green
Quote sources – green italics
Emphasis (Spoken words) – black underlined
Emphasis (Quotes) – green underlined

Opposition Main Post #1 (LTDK)

Introduction

Highly esteemed judge, worthy opponents and all the listeners who have come here from afar! We’re here to debate whether Morgoth was a poor strategist or not. Our opponents, Latvians, have already expressed their opinion on this matter, stating that Morgoth was not a good strategist. Conversely, we strongly believe that he was and indeed we marvel at how good the evil Vala was at planning his moves and thinking about ‘tomorrow’. Tomorrow always comes… and Morgoth was a being that knew that all too well, which is why he was always wisely planning ahead unlike his enemies.
I will now explain why we believe so. First, I will demonstrate that the topic statement itself contains relativity and thus it must be additionally treated by comparing and contrasting the strategies of Morgoth and his enemies. Consequently, I will provide you with some proofs that Morgoth’s enemies, namely the Valar, Maiar and the Children of Ilúvatar, were worse strategists, taking you through the history of Arda before the First Age and during it. Later in this debate my teammates will further develop these arguments, hopefully leaving no more doubt in your minds that Morgoth was a good strategist.

Main arguments

Relativity within the topic statement

First, I would like to note that whenever assuming that someone or something is good or bad, we must have something to compare it with – and that ‘something’ is a point of reference.

A thing cannot be good or bad all on its own. Speaking in ordinary terms, if you say that chocolate with nuts is tasty, you actually deduct the statement from the fact that (e.g.), in your opinion, chocolate with nuts is tasty comparing to asparagus. Therefore in this rather Arda-unrelated example asparagus is the point of reference.

Taste is a very slippery subject and, thank goodness (or Elkness!), we are not going to need to deal with it in this debate. Quite the reverse, the matter of Morgoth being a good strategist is plain and can be logically proved: he was a good one because he was far better in strategizing than any other beings, all the inhabitants of Arda being the reference point. Even if there were one or two persons who were better strategists than Morgoth (which I highly doubt), the Vala would still be ‘good’ – note that there are no superlatives in the statement “Morgoth was a poor strategist”, therefore we are not talking about the ‘best’ or the ‘worse’.
That makes it even easier for us to prove our undeniable truth!

All the time I have been pointing towards one important matter on which I and later my teammates are going to concentrate on: Morgoth was a better strategist than his enemies, therefore he was a good one. ‘Enemies’ in this case could be roughly split into two significant parts:
1) Valar and Maiar;
2) Eldar and Atani;
The strategic skills of the enemies is the point of reference we will use.
The Valar and the Maiar were Morgoth’s most powerful enemies, but alas! despite their numbers (Morgoth was only one facing all the other Valar!) and wisdom, they failed to surpass Morgoth in his mighty skills of strategy and thus much evil happened in Arda. This is mostly seen in the events before the First Age and in some of the First Age itself.
The Elves and Men were much weaker than Valar and Maiar, however, they were the main figures of the war against Morgoth in the First Age. If it was not for the Valar, who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, Eldar and their mortal allies would have been utterly defeated thanks to Morgoth’s strategy. Actually, Morgoth’s concerning the Children of Ilúvatar was even more complex, as will be shown by my colleague.

Pre-First Age strategy

Morgoth demonstrated amazingly good (and successful) strategy from Ainulindalë till the beginning of the First Age. Just think about it: the Ainur came to Arda and started their labours, creating the environment and preparing everything for the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. However, they only thought about the near future and, unlike Melkor, they did not think about what would happen afterwards and what they could do to affect the future development of the history of Arda so that it comes to their benefit. To say the truth, they could have even made some plan to stop Morgoth’s malice from spreading in Arda!

Indeed from the very beginning it was a disadvantage for Melkor that he was the only one of a different mind among all the Ainur and first it was he alone who disturbed the harmony of the Music of Ainur. However, throughout the years before the First Age he worked hard to reduce this disadvantage by finding allies. For example, in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta). He didn’t succeed in that, but still others he corrupted <…> to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Melkor didn’t just go here and there rashly destroying all the works of the Valar. He was looking for allies, and that is already good strategy!

Another significant strategic movement made by Melkor was fortifying himself in Middle-earth, literally in the middle of the world where all the events took place – not in some far place like Valinor on the edge of the world! After the Valar have done their work creating everything in Arda, they rather seem to be passive spectators, whereas Melkor is a participant who is making plans and strategy. His excellent strategy is obvious at the time when the Darkening of Valinor draws near, when he actually sets the soil for all the events of the First Age. By his secret cunning labours while he dwelt in Valinor he achieved a split between his enemies and left an ineradicable trace behind him. My teammate will explain this in detail, and now I must move on to…

…the turbulent First Age

The First Age is actually the period of Arda’s history in which Morgoth’s strategic talent is revealed to us in all its might. Morgoth’s brilliant idea was to deal with the two kinds of enemies one by one. As I said, before the rising of Sun and Moon he prepared the soil for everything that happened afterwards to unfold. Many of the Eldar, mostly Noldor, left Valinor and went to Middle-earth. Without the help and support of the Valar, they were here much easier to defeat. In fact, Morgoth almost achieved this part of his plan.

It is tempting to believe that Morgoth was a poor strategist because he lost in the end, however, the fact that he caused a big headache for the Valar shows that he knew the weakness of his enemies and could use them strategically. If we said that Napoleon was a poor strategist because he failed in the Russian campaign and afterwards, we would unjustly underestimate the evidence of Toulon or Austerlitz. Just like Napoleon, Morgoth was no poor strategist!

Now in Of the Beginning of Days in the Silmarillion it is said:

<…> since they [the Valar] understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.

Who could have thought?! By starting a conflict between the Eldar and the Valar, by driving the Noldor from Valinor and finally having war against them Morgoth was actually both manipulating and risking!

He was risking because he knew that meddling with the Children of Ilúvatar might turn to no good. He also knew that the Valar could suddenly come from the West and defeat him. One always needs to risk more or less, even if he or she is a really good strategist. This could be roughly compared to playing cards: no matter how good your strategy is, you are still risking a lot!

On the other hand, Morgoth was manipulating (a sign of well-thought-out strategy!), because he knew that the Valar would not want to interfere in the deeds of Noldor; for several hundreds years this strategy worked very well. While content with the Valar sitting in Valinor behind their thick fences and high Mountains, Morgoth could work on strategizing for the war with the Noldor itself.

Here we touch another important subject: battles. If Morgoth had been a poor strategist, he would have striked too soon or too late. But he didn’t, except for one or two instances when he made a mistake (hey, even Napoleon made mistakes!). One by one he took the strongholds of Elves in Beleriand. He used dragons and Balrogs, and his orcs multiplied. Another important achievement made by him was corrupting Men to his service. Where were the Valar at the moment? How come they missed the coming of Men and thus most of the mortals were turned to evil? It was so because Morgoth was ever making plans for the future, whereas the Valar were not.

Captain Worm will elaborate on Morgoth’s strategy in the First Age, and I, having outlined what I and my teammates strongly believe, will not take any more of your time.

Conclusion

I have just listed out the main reasons why our team is sure about Morgoth not being a poor strategist at all. He was thinking about the future from he very beginning when he started looking for allies. From then on, his strategy was ever more well-considered. He wisely chose his strongholds and he was never lost in any situation, namely the difficult (for him) time when he was in Valinor under the vigilance of the Valar. Not only did he succeed in deceiving the Valar by putting on a fair cloak, but also his deliberate works done while he was in this ‘prison’ succeded in spliting his enemies and making the situation favourable to him to make war against the Eldar alone. Most importantly, it is obvious that the Valar were much worse strategists than Morgoth was. Alas that they never made plans to stop the evil of Morgoth!
Therefore I see no way in which Morgoth could be called a poor strategist. He was a genius, and he was one of the greatest beings of Arda – the vastness of his works speaks for itself!
Hrrrr

Vartotojo avataras
Starlin
preciousss
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#37 Standartinė Starlin » 02 Kov 2005, 21:46

Išcentruok.

Pataisyk:

Morgoth was a being that knew that all -> Morgoth was a being who knew that all

will further develop these arguments -> will develop these arguments further

First, I would like to note -> Firstly, I would like to note (per dažnai kartojasi)

Quite the reverse -> Quite the contrary (ar ne?.. Man regis, taip sakoma)

was far better in strategizing than any other beings -> was far better in strategizing than all other beings

the ‘best’ or the ‘worse’. -> the 'best' or the 'worst'. (nepastebėjai, kad ir superliatyvą pakeičiau!)

That makes it even easier -> This makes it even easier

All the time I have been pointing towards -> All the time I have been driving at

If it was not for the Valar, who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, Eldar and their mortal allies -> If it were not for the Valar, who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, the Eldar and their mortal allies

Morgoth’s concerning the Children of Ilúvatar -> Morgoth’s strategy concerning the Children of Ilúvatar

He was thinking about the future from he very beginning -> He was thinking about the future from the very beginning

Elfhild
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#38 Standartinė Elfhild » 02 Kov 2005, 22:27

*atsipučia su palengvėjimu*
Na va, žinutė jau ten. Tikiuosi bus gera :) dabar laukiam jų žingsnio. Starlin, manau, jei turi, gali savo juodraštį/švaraštį jau čia spausdinti, pažiūrėsim.
Hrrrr

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Starlin
preciousss
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#39 Standartinė Starlin » 02 Kov 2005, 22:36

Geriau rytoj.

Kokia spalva žymėti cituojamus priešininkų žodžius?

YaWorm
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#40 Standartinė YaWorm » 03 Kov 2005, 00:23

Elfhild, jau sakiau, bet dar pakartosiu: JĖGA! Mūsų žinutė tikrai už jų geresnė :D

Starlin. Galima ir rytoj :) Laiko tikrai turim. Bet man kilo klausimėlis... ar tik Elk nedavė mums tik 24 valandų? Na, bet šitą galima greit išsiaiškint, o be to, visvien žinutė jau ten. Citatas iš oponentų žinutės galima žymėti... pvz... oranžine spalva (orange).

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